erfahrungen mit regien mit FTB-akustik?

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thomas, thanks for providing additional information.

i have another question: what is the reason for the angled side walls/ceiling? of course, the front wall needs to be angled to not reflect the signal to the sweet spot, but what about the other surfaces in the room which have only absorption? in my understanding this is different to rooms with (full) RFZ where the angled walls/ceiling are strictly need. so i'm wondering what the idea behind the angled side walls/ceiling with FTB is? or is it just for look & feel?

Nothing in FTB is looks oriented (except the front walls in glass - but that is nice to get light in too).

It's all design by function.

The angles are there mostly to manage Low Frequencies / how the energy spreads in the room.
 
No more questions? Reactions?

Maybe I was rude...
 
No, you were very helpful. I bet more questions will follow. :)
 
thank you... very interesting to hear your thoughts/philosophy behind your designs.

next thing would be actually listening to one of your rooms.
 
Thomas, you are asking for questions, here it comes :)

What would you say are the minimal room dimensions for your design to get a smooth freqeuncy response and and a good room impression?
 
Thomas, you are asking for questions, here it comes :)

What would you say are the minimal room dimensions for your design to get a smooth freqeuncy response and and a good room impression?

thank you - i had the same question
 
Thomas, you are asking for questions, here it comes :)

What would you say are the minimal room dimensions for your design to get a smooth freqeuncy response and and a good room impression?

FTB rooms cannot be built with dimensions less than 5.3m width, 6.5m long and 3.0m height;. That will result usually in a 21m² to 24m² finished net surface control room.

We managed to fit some in 5m/6m/2.9 but it is a very tedious build.

Less than that we will refuse to go for FTB and will use another approach.

Load bearing capacity of the floor must be at least 4kN/m². Better from 6kN/m².

Small rooms don't differ much at all from big ones. The advantage of big ones is that because you are further away from the speakers, the floor effect is less present (floor reflection arriving later in time - so creating a series of problem - deep narrow Q notches and small 1 to 2dB bumps - that varies in frequency and amplitude depending on distance from sweet spot to speaker - this happens in every studio, no matter the "concept" BTW) and the sweet spot is wider.

Bass response is about the exact same. A bit more room gain in smaller rooms, so we have to further reduce bass output from speakers.

Because of the way FTB is designed, smaller rooms have an ETC falling of 60dB in under 100ms, close to 80ms. Larger rooms, because sound has to travel more distance before it hits the treatment can be longer up to 150ms. This does not change the performance though.

Hope this helps.
 
Yes thanks, that's a good indicator.

Beside from FTB, what other "concepts" would you recommend for a smaller room than stated above? Mostly the ceiling heights are not above 2,5m ...
 
FTB rooms cannot be built with dimensions less than 5.3m width, 6.5m long and 3.0m height;. That will result usually in a 21m² to 24m² finished net surface control room.

ok, till now we planed 6.32 x 5.64 x 3.28. i think we can stretch the 6.32 to 6.5 and less high or less broad is not a problem ;-)

are your measures including the outer wall (i don't mean the wall of the building, but theWALL FOR THE acoustic separation)?
 
Yes thanks, that's a good indicator.

Beside from FTB, what other "concepts" would you recommend for a smaller room than stated above? Mostly the ceiling heights are not above 2,5m ...

Let's call it a "custom compromise" . I don't think any model in particular works well in small rooms.

So we go with what we feel is the best ad-hoc approach, and try to take care of a maximum of issues properly.
 
Yes thanks, that's a good indicator.

Beside from FTB, what other "concepts" would you recommend for a smaller room than stated above? Mostly the ceiling heights are not above 2,5m ...

Let's call it a "custom compromise" . I don't think any model in particular works well in small rooms.

So we go with what we feel is the best ad-hoc approach, and try to take care of a maximum of issues properly.

Fine, that's an answer with integrity. Thank you.
 
The angles are there mostly to manage Low Frequencies / how the energy spreads in the room.
in my understanding the angled side walls are fully absorbing, so what is the mechanism to lead to a different management / spreading of the low frequency energy instead of when using non-angled side walls? is my understanding correct, that rectangular FTB rooms (except front wall) would give a worse performance in the low frequency area? if yes, why?
 
The angles are there mostly to manage Low Frequencies / how the energy spreads in the room.
in my understanding the angled side walls are fully absorbing, so what is the mechanism to lead to a different management / spreading of the low frequency energy instead of when using non-angled side walls? is my understanding correct, that rectangular FTB rooms (except front wall) would give a worse performance in the low frequency area? if yes, why?


Due to physics as in every other room. Angled side walls do not have horizontal bass modes given that the wall are heavy enough.
 
Due to physics as in every other room. Angled side walls do not have horizontal bass modes given that the wall are heavy enough.
i would agree, if the side walls where reflective, but in my understanding they are absorbing (at least thats what i could see on pictures where FTB-rooms are built), which would mean, that there is no relevant impact that could result in a different management / spreading of the low frequencies. but maybe thomas can clarify.
 
if they are absorptive then the angled side walls are due to the big bass traps in the corner.
me thinking... :D

I´m interested in the use of Homatherm, esp. regarding Matt Greys comment on Gearsluts:
"The final side wall treatment was completed yesterday (last Homatherm layer). Boy does it sound different to the previous Rockwool layer. More livelier (not as dead sounding as the Rockwool)."

I have good experience homatherm (especially in combination with other material), but not that it sounds more livelier. Is Homatherm more reflective regarding high frequencies?
 
as you can see on various pictures, there doesn't seem to be a specific bass trap in the corners of the angled sidewalls. even if that was the case, you could still place them "behind" the "rockwool-ed" side walls (you have an inner & an outer shell).

homatherm ist more reflective regarding the low frequencies, but i don't think regarding high frequencies.
 
as you can see on various pictures, there doesn't seem to be a specific bass trap in the corners of the angled sidewalls. even if that was the case, you could still place them "behind" the "rockwool-ed" side walls (you have an inner & an outer shell).

homatherm istmore reflective regarding the low frequencies, but i don't think regarding high frequencies.

If you look only at the resistance to flow aspect of things, then in theory, Homatherm indeed shouldn't be as good as Rockwool in the LF.

On the other hand, if you take in account it's mechanical behaviour (and tortuosity factor etc) and use that, then it is far more effective than Rockwool in the LF.

So it's not only about the tool this time, it's about how you use it :) and how you install it. It's important to see beyond impedance tube tests and echo chamber tests. And, in time and as experience grows, learn to read that data from another angle.

Homatherm, depending on the quality of the batch (believe it or not: if it's made of newspaper or magazines) may not absorb 100% in the lower mids, but around 0.8, 0.9. - which as soon as you've place the fabric and dacron layers, isn't a problem at all.

The side walls do contain membrane systems behind various layers of various absorptive products. It is not allowed to put any pictures of these in build threads though. So you will never see them on GS or any other forum. Side walls are pretty deep.

Re: geometry.

Except for front wall, you have to see how this works depending on the frequency bandwidth your dealing with. For High frequencies and Mid Frequencies, obviously, seeing the type of treatment used, it does not make a difference whatsoever. So there you are correct!

For lower frequencies, the point is to avoid having to control residual modal behaviours from the shells as much as possible, which can be hard to fully eradicate in rectangular spaces. For that, controlling dispersion of sound, and thus redirecting it to a specific area of the room (back wall in FTB) and being able to "map it" rather precisely is needed. That brings much better results than leaving the room rectangular, if you know how your geometry will behave precisely enough.

To do that you work on the way LF see the shell and how they interact with the complex boundary of the side wall's first layer of lower impedance treatment for example ( homatherm, rockwool etc, HF + MF treatment), membranes (LF pressure based treatment) and higher impedance boundary (wall, soundproofing and geometry). When a wave hits resistance to flow treatment (the first layers of the side wall traps), there is a change of impedance hence a change in direction of the sound and a phase shift. When it hits the membrane, a massive phase shift and loss of energy/pressure. When the residual energy hits the hard shell, a phase shift again + depending on frequency either a surfacic behaviour or a geometric bounce (Snell-Descartes like).

Also, the angle at which sound hits porous material will make it "see it" differently. A controlled angle of incidence can greatly enhance the performance of certain type of treatment in the LF, basically, for any frequency where the behaviour of sound isn't yet fully surfacic. Now that is a whole can o' worm here because indeed, when LF get low enough and incidence low enough, they will tend to "follow the surface of the trap" rather than actually interact with it. So you need to deal with that too.

So basically, geometry is one of the tools in the box to control LF behaviour in the rooms and optimize it.

This is vastly generalized (and probably full of typos) but should answer your question, I hope.
 
thanks for providing very interesting views!
your explanation describes how FTB rooms (or the used mechanisms) work, but i still don't see the difference (in the low frequency area) compared to a rectangular room.

let me ask my question from a different viewing angle:
what is the motivation of all the mechanisms you described in the low frequency area?
- very low reverberation time
- defined distribution of the room modes

lets say i design a very simple rectangular room with a defined distribution of the room modes & by having very thick walls full of rockwool having a performance down to 20hz. wouldn't that give me a compareable performance in the low frequency area?

i hope you don't find my questions offending, but we have a quite acoustic-interested community here, so its nice to have you as an expert here & we are allowed to ask you some questions in order to better understand the FTB-approach (and the differences to other designs). of course, we understand, if you can not provide too much details of the design.
 
Thats reeeeaaaallyyy interesting. Thanks for the information! I'm eating this thread! :)
 
Thanks a lot for your statement regarding homatherm. You've confirmed my guesses.
 

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