VST System Link

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csethje
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Mahlzeit,

hab mich mal mit dem Thema beschäftigt und folgende Theorie aufgestellt.

ich verbinde meinen Fostex D-80 digital mit meiner Soundkarte und hab dank System Link nun 8 Ein- und Ausgänge mit denen ich gleichzeitig aufnehmen/wiedergeben kann.

Könnte das funktionieren? Gibt es noch einfachere Möglichkeiten?? Ist das Unsinn???

Muß dazu sagen, daß ich noch keine Soundkarte mit digital Ein/Ausgang habe und damit keine Ahnung, wie da die zusammenarbeit mit dem D-80 aussieht.

PS: Wer allgemein noch gute Links zum Thema hat, kann mir mit deren Veröffentlichung auch eine Freude machen!!!
 
N
NULL
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Hi System Link funtioniert NUR Digital, sei es S/pdif oder ADAT. Am besten ADAT weil dies 8 Kanalig ausgelegt ist und S/pdif nur 2 Kanalig.

Das D-80 kenne ich nicht, aber zu erwähnen ist, dass SystemLink ein Steinberg Ding ist, das bis jetzt nur innerhalb Nuendo und Cubase SX funktioniert.

Viele Grüsse aus dem Käseland...
Daniel

www.sick-guitars.ch
www.guitarworld.de
 
RandomRecords
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Erstmal: Das funktioniert auch mit VST.
Ich hab mir mal ein Tutorial zum Thema VST System Link gesaugt, kann ich Dir schicken, allerdings nur in Englisch. Wenn Du Interesse hast, dann mail mir. Ansonsten sollte es diese Tutorial auch auf der Steinberg-Seite geben, ist ein PDF. Such einfach mal bei denen nach VST System Link.
 
Gunny
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Hi,

Webseite von Steinberg:
Dieser revolutionäre neue Standard bringt echte Konnektivität und Plattformunabhängigkeit in die Digital-Audio-Welt. VST System Link ermöglicht den Austausch von Sychronisations-, Transport- und Audiodaten zwischen zwei oder mehr Workstations, die mit kompatibler Soft- und Hardware ausgestattet und über Standard-Digital-Audio-Kabelsysteme wie ADAT, TDIF, AES/EBU oder S/PDIF verbunden sind. Die Synchronisation ist selbst zwischen mehreren Arbeitsplätzen völlig sample-genau, da sie sich auf den Audio-Datenstrom selbst stützt.
 
N
NULL
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tja, schade eigentlich, wer hat schon das kleingeld für zwei cubase-systeme.
trotzdem würde mich mal interessieren, wie das ganze in der praxis funktioniert. muss z.b. auf beiden systemen das selbe projekt geladen sein?
die latenzen summieren sich? ist das dann überhaupt auf langsameren systemen sinnvoll?
falls jemand schon erfahrungen mit systemlink gemacht hat, bitte hier posten.
 
csethje
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auch auf die Gefahr hin, mich hier als Unwissenden zu outen (dürfte aber schon in den vorherigen Beiträgen passiert sein, hehe)

Die Verbindung zwischen dem D80 und der Soundkarte läuft über das DATA/SPDIF (IEC958 II) Format. Ist also meines Wissens (siehe oben) was anderes als ADAT.
Daß das VST System Link für die Vernetzung von Rechnern gedacht ist, hab ich auch schon rausgelesen.

Mein Ansatz war, daß man über ein Update des D80-Betriebssystems VSt-System-Link-Kompatibilität erhält und indem man den D80 quasi als Zweitrechner nimmt, die Ein/Ausgänge desselben für eine Übertragung auf den Rechner in Echtzeit nutzt. Also eine 8-Kanal-Soundkarte über den D80 simuliert.

Sollte das wie Random andeutete auch ohne System Link funktionieren verweise ich auf meine Ahnungslosigkeit in Bezug auf digitale Ein/Ausgänge bei Soundkarten.

Habt Mitleid mit mir!
 
sick-guitars
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RandomRecords schrieb:
Erstmal: Das funktioniert auch mit VST.

Habe gerade nachgeschaut... VST ist immer noch beim 5.1pb2 was heisst, dass es noch nicht geht mit VST. Steinberg hat angekündigt, dass auch VST System-Link bekommen wird, aber ich vermute, dass das erst nach dem 2.0 Update von Nuendo der Fall sein wird...!

icon_smile_big.gif







[ Geändert von sick-guitars am 18.09.2002 22:43 ]
 
RandomRecords
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Hier ist Kapitel 28 aus der englischen Anleitung von Cubase SX. Das sollte erstmal einige Fragen beantworten. Die deutsche Anleitung habe ich leider nicht gefunden. Jedesmal wenn das CUBASE SX steht, dann ist das ein Seitenwechsel.

28
VST System Link
CUBASE SX
28 – 624 VST System Link
Introduction
VST System Link is a network system for digital audio that allows you
to have several computers working together in one large system. Unlike
conventional networks it does not require Ethernet cards, hubs, or
CAT-5 cables; instead it uses the kind of digital audio hardware and
cables you probably already possess in your studio.
VST System Link has been designed to be simple to set up and operate,
yet give enormous flexibility and performance gains in use. It is capable
of linking computers in a “ring” network (the System Link signal
is passed from one machine to the next, and eventually returns to the
first machine). VST System Link can send its networking signal over
any type of digital audio cable, including S/PDIF, ADAT, TDIF, or AES,
as long as each computer in the system is equipped with a suitable
ASIO compatible audio interface.
So, why would you want to link up two or more computers? Well, the
added computer power gives you vast possibilities:
• Dedicate one computer to running VST instruments while recording audio
tracks on another.
• If you need lots of audio tracks, you may simply add tracks on another computer.
• You could have one computer serve as a “virtual effect rack”, running CPU-intensive
send effect plug-ins only.
• Since you can use VST System Link to connect different VST System Link applications
on different platforms, you can take advantage of effect plug-ins and
VST instruments that are specific to certain programs or platforms.
This chapter describes how to set up and use VST System Link in
Cubase SX.
CUBASE SX
VST System Link 28 – 625
Preparations
Requirements
The following equipment is required for VST System Link operation:
• Two or more computers.
These can be of the same type or use different operating systems – it doesn’t matter.
For example, you can link an Intel-based PC to an Apple Macintosh without problems.
• Each computer must have audio hardware with specific ASIO drivers, installed
and working.
• The audio hardware must have digital inputs and outputs.
Of course, to be able to connect the computers the digital connections must be compatible
(i.e. the same digital formats and connection types must be available).
• At least one digital audio cable for each computer in the network.
• A VST System Link host application installed on each computer.
As of this writing, VST System Link is implemented for Cubase SX, Nuendo 1.6 and
Cubase 5.1 (System Link version). Any VST System Link applications can connect to
each other.
Additionally, we recommend that you use a KVM switchbox:
Using a KVM switchbox
If you want to set up a multi-computer network, or even a small network
in a limited space, it's a good idea to invest in a KVM (Keyboard,
Video, Mouse) switchbox. With one of these switchers you can use
the same keyboard, monitor, and mouse to control each computer in
the system, and switch between computers very rapidly. KVM switchers
are not too expensive, and very easy to setup and operate. It you
decide not to go this route, the network will function just the same, but
you may end up doing a lot of jumping from one machine to the other
while setting up!
CUBASE SX
28 – 626 VST System Link
Making connections
Below, we will assume that you are connecting two computers.
Should you have more than two computers, it’s still best to start with
two and add the others one by one once the system is working – this
makes troubleshooting easier if you run into problems. For two computers,
you will need two digital audio cables, one in each direction:
1. Connect a digital audio cable from the digital output of Computer 1 to
the digital input of Computer 2.
2. Connect the other cable from the digital output of Computer 2 into the
digital input of Computer 1.
• If a card has more then one set of inputs and outputs, choose whichever
one that suits you – for simplicity usually the first set is best.
CUBASE SX
VST System Link 28 – 627
Setting up clock sync
Before you proceed you need to make sure that the clock signals on
your ASIO cards are synchronized correctly. This is essential when
cabling any kind of digital audio system, not just VST System Link.
All digital audio cables by definition always carry a clock signal as well as
audio signals, so you don't need to use a special Word Clock input and
output for this (although you may find that you get a slightly more stable
audio system if you do, especially when using multiple computers).
The Clock Mode or Sync Mode is set up in the audio hardware’s
ASIO Control Panel. In Cubase SX, you proceed as follows:
1. Pull down the Devices menu and open the Device Setup dialog.
2. Select the VST Multitrack device and make sure the Setup tab is selected
to the right.
3. Click the Control Panel button.
The ASIO Control Panel appears.
4. Open the ASIO Control Panel on the other computer as well.
If you are using another VST System Link host application on that computer, check its
documentation for details on how to open the ASIO Control Panel. Hint: in Steinberg’s
Nuendo 1.6, the procedure is the same as in Cubase SX. In Cubase 5.1, you pull
down the Options menu, select System from the Audio Setup menu and click the Control
Panel button in the Audio System Setup dialog that appears.
CUBASE SX
28 – 628 VST System Link
5. Now, you need to make sure that one audio card (and only one!) is set
to be the Clock Master, and all the other cards must be set to listen
for the clock signal coming from the Clock Master i.e. they must be
Clock Slaves.
The naming and procedure for this differs depending on the audio hardware – consult
its documentation if required. If you are using Steinberg Nuendo ASIO hardware, all
cards default to the “AutoSync” setting – in this case you must set one of the cards
(and only one) to “Master” in the Clock Mode section of the Control Panel.
• Typically, the ASIO Control Panel for an audio card contains some indication
of whether the card receives a proper sync signal or not, and
the sample rate of that signal.
This is a good indication that you have connected the cards and set up clock sync
properly. Check your audio hardware’s documentation for details.
It’s very important that one and only one card is the clock master, otherwise
the network cannot function correctly. Once you have set this up, all
the other cards in the network will take their clock signal from this card
automatically.
The only exception to this procedure is if you are using an external
clock – which could be from a digital mixing desk or special Word
Clock synchronizer for example. If so, you must then leave all your
ASIO cards in Clock Slave or AutoSync mode, and make sure that
each of them is listening for the signal coming from the synchronizer,
usually passed through your ADAT cables or Word Clock connectors
in a daisy chain fashion.
CUBASE SX
VST System Link 28 – 629
Minimizing the latency
The general definition of latency is the amount of time it takes any system
to respond to whatever messages are sent to it. For example, if
your system’s latency is high and you play VST instruments in real
time, you will get a noticeable delay between when you press a key
and when you hear the sound of the VST instrument. Nowadays, most
ASIO-compatible audio cards are capable of operating with very low
latencies. Also, all VST applications are designed to compensate for
latency during playback, making the playback timing tight.
However, the latency time of a VST System Link network is the total
latency of all the ASIO cards in the system added together. Therefore
it’s extra important to minimize the latency times for each computer in
the network.
• The latency does not affect the synchronization – it's always perfectly in
time. But, it can affect the time it takes to send and receive MIDI and audio
signals, or make the system seem sluggish.
To adjust the latency of a system, you typically adjust the size of the
buffers in the ASIO Control Panel – the lower the buffer size, the lower
the latency. Generally speaking it's best to keep to fairly low latencies
(buffer sizes) if your system can handle it – about 12 ms or less is usually
a good idea.
CUBASE SX
28 – 630 VST System Link
Setting up your software
Now it’s time to set up your programs. The procedures below describe
how to set things up in Cubase SX; if you are using another
program on the other computer, please refer to its documentation.
Setting the sample rate
The projects in both programs must be set to use the same sample
rate. Select “Project Setup…” from the Project menu and make sure
the sample rate is the same in both systems.
Setting up inputs and outputs
1. Open the VST Inputs window from the Devices menu.
2. Activate the inputs you want to use by clicking the buttons in the Active
column.
To make it simple you will probably want to enable all inputs available in the cable you
are using. For example, if you are using an ADAT connection this would mean clicking
on the first four buttons (i.e. activate the first eight inputs).
CUBASE SX
VST System Link 28 – 631
3. Close the VST Inputs window and open the VST Outputs window
from the Devices menu.
4. Enable the output buses you need.
Usually these should match up to the input buses you enabled above. In our ADAT
example, this would mean the first four stereo outputs.
5. Repeat the steps above for all computers in the network.
• Note that at least one computer in your network needs to have more
than one physical set of audio outputs, so that you can hear what's coming
out of it!
 
RandomRecords
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For example, if your audio card has a stereo analog out and an ADAT connector, you
can use the ADAT connector for networking and the analog outs for monitoring. Make
sure that the bus setup in your VST application reflects which set of outputs is doing
which operation.
Once we've done this we have a set of inputs and outputs that can
carry both our network commands and audio signals from one computer
to another. At this point, it may be a good idea to test that everything
is set up properly:
CUBASE SX
28 – 632 VST System Link
Streaming digital audio between applications
1. Set things up so that Computer 1 plays back some audio.
You could for example import an audio file and play this back in Cycle mode.
2. In the Mixer, make sure the playing audio channel is routed to one of
the digital outputs you have set up for the VST System Link connection.
3. In Computer 2, select the corresponding digital input for an audio
channel and activate monitoring for the channel.
The audio being played back should now “appear” in the program running on Computer
2. You should see the input level meters moving, and possibly hear the audio (if
Computer 1 is set up for audio monitoring, as mentioned above).
4. Reverse this procedure so that Computer 2 plays back and Computer
1 “listens”.
Now you have verified that the digital connection works as it should.
CUBASE SX
VST System Link 28 – 633
Activating VST System Link
After setting up the inputs and outputs, you now need to define which
input/output should carry the actual VST System Link information.
The System Link networking signal is carried on only one bit of one
channel. This means that if you have an ADAT based system which
normally carries eight channels of 24-bit audio, once you activate VST
System Link you will have seven channels of 24-bit audio and one
channel of 23-bit audio (the least significant bit of this last channel is
what we will use for networking). In practice this makes no discernible
difference to the audio quality, since you will still have around 138dB
headroom on this channel – and to be honest, most so-called 24-bit
A/D converters usually only give about 21 or 22 bits of real signal anyway.
So don't worry too much about losing quality – even the highest
level pros are unlikely to hear any difference.
To set things up we need to open the VST System Link panel:
1. Open the Device Setup dialog on the Devices menu.
2. Select the VST System Link device and make sure the Setup tab is
selected to the right.
CUBASE SX
28 – 634 VST System Link
3. Use the ASIO Input and ASIO Output pop-up menus to define which
channel should be the networking channel (and thus become a 23-bit
audio channel, in our example).
Quite often you will be able to just leave these pop-ups the way they are.
4. Click the Active checkbox at the top of the panel.
5. Repeat the steps above for every computer on the network.
As the computers are made active, you should see the small T (Transmit)
and R (Receive) lights flashing on each active computer, and the
name of each computer should appear in the list at the bottom of the
pane. Each computer is assigned a random number – don't worry
about this, it's just so the network knows internally which one is which.
• If you wish, you can double click on the name in bold (which is the
name of the computer you’re currently working on) and set it to whatever
other name you wish.
This name will appear in the System Link window of every computer on the network.
• If you don't see the name of each computer appearing once you have
made it active, you may have to check your settings.
Go through the procedure above again and make sure that all ASIO cards are listening
to the digital clock signals correctly, and that each computer has the correct inputs
and outputs assigned to the System Link network.
Putting the network online
After each computer's name you will see whether it is Online or not.
When a computer is Online, that means it receives transport and timecode
signals, and its sequencer application can be started and stopped
by remote control. If it is Off-line it can only be started from its own keyboard
– it is effectively an independent machine, although it is still on
the network.
• Note that any computer can control any and all of the others – VST System
Link is a peer to peer network and there is no absolute “Master”
computer.
However, most users do like to think of one machine as the Master (in a one person /
two computer network, this would be the machine you actually sit behind most of the
time).
CUBASE SX
VST System Link 28 – 635
For now, let's put all computers Online:
1. Activate the Online checkbox in the VST System Link panel for all
computers.
2. Check that the system is working by pressing Play on one computer –
all computers should start almost instantly and play perfectly in time,
with sample accurate precision.
• The Offset setting to the right allows you to adjust whether one machine
will play back slightly ahead or behind the rest.
This is normally not needed, but occasionally with some hardware you may find that the
lock is a few samples out. In that case you can adjust the lock with the Offset value. For
now, leave it set to 0 – it will most likely be what you want.
VST System Link sends and understands all transport commands, so
you can play, stop, fast forward, rewind etc. the entire network from
one computer without a problem – try it! If you jump to a locator point
on one machine, all other machines will also instantly jump to that locator
point.
Don't forget to make sure that all computers have their tempos set to the
same value, otherwise your synchronization will be seriously skewed.
CUBASE SX
28 – 636 VST System Link
Using MIDI
As well as supplying transport and sync control, VST System Link also
supplies up to 16 MIDI ports, each with 16 channels. You set this up
as follows:
1. Use the MIDI Ins and Outs value boxes to specify the number of MIDI
ports you need.
The default value is 2 MIDI In and 2 MIDI Out ports.
2. Create a MIDI track in the Project window and open the Inspector
(top section).
3. If you now pull down the “in” or “out” pop-ups, you will find the specified
System Link ports added to the list of MIDI Inputs and Outputs.
This allows you to route MIDI tracks to VST instruments running on
another computer, as described in the application examples (see
page 640).
CUBASE SX
VST System Link 28 – 637
The “Active ASIO Ports for Data only” setting
If you are sending huge amounts of MIDI data at once, there is a small
possibility that you might run out of bandwidth on your VST System
Link network. This will manifest itself by notes “choking” or timing becoming
erratic.
If this happens, you can devote more bandwidth to MIDI by selecting
Active ASIO Ports for Data only in the VST System Link Setup panel.
When this is active, the VST System Link information will be sent on
the entire channel instead of just one bit. This gives you 16 times the
bandwidth you had before, more than enough for all the MIDI you
could ever hope to use. The downside is that you can no longer use
this ASIO channel for audio transfer (do not connect it to a speaker!),
thus leaving you only 7 channels of audio in our ADAT cable example.
Depending on how you work this might be a reasonable compromise.
Hearing the network audio
If you are using an external mixing desk, hearing your audio really isn't
an issue – just plug the outputs of each computer into the desired
channels on the external mixing desk, press Play on one of the computers,
and you're good to go.
However, many people prefer to mix internally inside the computer
and just use a desk for monitoring (or maybe not use any external
mixer at all). In this case you'll need to select one computer to be your
“main mix computer” and send the audio from your other computers
into this.
In the following example, we assume you are using two computers,
with Computer 1 as your main mix computer and Computer 2 running
two additional audio tracks, a reverb plug-in and a VST instrument
plug-in with stereo outputs.
1. First you want to set things up so that you can listen to the audio playback
from Computer 1.
In other words, you need an unused set of outputs, e.g. an analog stereo output, connected
to your monitoring equipment.
2. Go to Computer 2 and assign each of the two audio tracks to a separate
VST System Link output bus.
For example, assign the audio tracks to Bus 1 and 2.
CUBASE SX
28 – 638 VST System Link
3. Assign the output of the reverb to another bus (e.g. Bus 3).
This is done using the output routing pop-up menu in the VST Send Effects window.
4. Assign the VST instrument stereo channel to yet another bus (e.g.
Bus 4).
5. Go back to Computer 1 and add four new stereo audio tracks.
These should be routed to the bus you use for listening, e.g. to the analog stereo outputs.
6. Use the Input pop-up menus in the Mixer to select the four VST System
Link buses (one for each track).
7. Activate monitoring for the four tracks.
If you now start playback, the audio from Computer 2 will be sent
“live” to the new tracks on Computer 1, allowing you to hear them together
with any tracks you play back on Computer 1.
 
RandomRecords
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Zu der Sache mit dem Fostex: Ich glaube das kannste erst mal knicken. es sei denn, Du kriegst irgendwie Cubase oder sowas auf Deinen Fostex.

[ Geändert von RandomRecords am 19.09.2002 00:14 ]
 
sick-guitars
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So sei es...



Viele Grüsse aus dem Käseland...
Daniel
icon_smile_big.gif


 
Gunny
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Sers,

Wenn Du schon VST hast, würde ich es behalten denn wennst einmal ein älteren rechner hast, kannst es dort installieren.
Ich glaub Steinberg will das so ähnlich wie Microsoft machen, und zwar den Erwerb von weiteren Lizenzen, ...ich weis es nicht. Vielleicht ist es irgendwann möglich 2 oder 3 zusätzliche USB-Key's nachzukaufen und so
sein System auszulagern. (WINDOWS NT 4.0)z.B.
Aber ich glaub das macht kein Spaß mehr auf 5 Rechnern zu arbeiten,
das wird mit 2 schon schwierig. Man kann auch Cubase SX u VST auf einem System instaliert haben, aber ob das Sinn macht??
Normalerweise summieren sich die Latenzen nicht denn jeder Rechner hat ja seine Audiokarte, da würde das alles nichts bringen. Stell Dir mal vor
Du hast 5 Rechner (nur als Beispiel) auf jedem hast Du 5ms Latenz,...???
...na ??. Fünf ms ist schon ziemlich wenig, normalerweise so 10-12ms.

Belehrt mich eines Besseren wenn das in einer Weise nicht zutrifft. :-D

tja dann, Ciao.
 
popsta
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hi zusammen,

nochmal zum fostex d80 und dem systemlink...
nein, das geht leider nicht. systemlink kann generell nicht auf den fostex zugreifen. auch sendet der d80 kein adat signal, sondern ganz normales s/pdif. der digitale ausgang ist also <b>nur</b> zweikanalig.
damals :) gab es noch dat recorder, mit denen man (ich auch mal) ein 1/2 backup machen musste. das hat ewig gedauert...hehe.
kannst du aber auch mit dem d80 machen, dann aber nur 1/1.
wenn deine soundkarte einen digitalen eingang besitzt, dann kannst du je zwei spuren im vst aufnehmen. das ganze dann vier mal, dann hast du also acht monosouren in vst, die du dann in vst bearbeiten kannst.
sonst hast du keider gar keine chance, anders in den rechner zu kommen.

mfg
karsten
www.homerecording.de
www.soundsamples.de
 
N
NULL
Guest
noch mal kurz zu den latenzen:
die steinberg-seite wird ja gerade umgestellt, daher funktioniert der link nicht mehr:

(... However, the latency time of a VST System Link network is the total
latency of all the ASIO cards in the system added together . ...
ww.steinberg.net/products/ps/cubase/ pc/sl/pdf/VSTSystemLink.pdf)

und hier steht auch was dazu:
http://www1.keyboards.de/news/0112/19r02.htm

ist ja eigentlich auch logisch, da das daten-signal die rechner seriell durchläuft. mit zwei rechnern dürfte das aber noch kein grosses problem sein.
schon gar nicht, wenn beide rechner-outputs auf ein (digital-) mischer geroutet werden.
trotzdem, gute hardware ist also vorraussetzung für system-link.
 

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