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VST System Link

Dieses Thema im Forum "Musik produzieren" wurde erstellt von csethje, 18.09.02.

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  1. csethje

    csethje Themenersteller

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    Mahlzeit,

    hab mich mal mit dem Thema beschäftigt und folgende Theorie aufgestellt.

    ich verbinde meinen Fostex D-80 digital mit meiner Soundkarte und hab dank System Link nun 8 Ein- und Ausgänge mit denen ich gleichzeitig aufnehmen/wiedergeben kann.

    Könnte das funktionieren? Gibt es noch einfachere Möglichkeiten?? Ist das Unsinn???

    Muß dazu sagen, daß ich noch keine Soundkarte mit digital Ein/Ausgang habe und damit keine Ahnung, wie da die zusammenarbeit mit dem D-80 aussieht.

    PS: Wer allgemein noch gute Links zum Thema hat, kann mir mit deren Veröffentlichung auch eine Freude machen!!!
     
    csethje, 18.09.02
    #1
  2. NULL

    NULL Guest

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    Hi System Link funtioniert NUR Digital, sei es S/pdif oder ADAT. Am besten ADAT weil dies 8 Kanalig ausgelegt ist und S/pdif nur 2 Kanalig.

    Das D-80 kenne ich nicht, aber zu erwähnen ist, dass SystemLink ein Steinberg Ding ist, das bis jetzt nur innerhalb Nuendo und Cubase SX funktioniert.

    Viele Grüsse aus dem Käseland...
    Daniel

    www.sick-guitars.ch
    www.guitarworld.de
     
    NULL, 18.09.02
    #2
  3. RandomRecords

    RandomRecords

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    Erstmal: Das funktioniert auch mit VST.
    Ich hab mir mal ein Tutorial zum Thema VST System Link gesaugt, kann ich Dir schicken, allerdings nur in Englisch. Wenn Du Interesse hast, dann mail mir. Ansonsten sollte es diese Tutorial auch auf der Steinberg-Seite geben, ist ein PDF. Such einfach mal bei denen nach VST System Link.
     
    RandomRecords, 18.09.02
    #3
  4. Gunny

    Gunny

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    Hi,

    Webseite von Steinberg:
    Dieser revolutionäre neue Standard bringt echte Konnektivität und Plattformunabhängigkeit in die Digital-Audio-Welt. VST System Link ermöglicht den Austausch von Sychronisations-, Transport- und Audiodaten zwischen zwei oder mehr Workstations, die mit kompatibler Soft- und Hardware ausgestattet und über Standard-Digital-Audio-Kabelsysteme wie ADAT, TDIF, AES/EBU oder S/PDIF verbunden sind. Die Synchronisation ist selbst zwischen mehreren Arbeitsplätzen völlig sample-genau, da sie sich auf den Audio-Datenstrom selbst stützt.
     
    Gunny, 18.09.02
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  5. NULL

    NULL Guest

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    tja, schade eigentlich, wer hat schon das kleingeld für zwei cubase-systeme.
    trotzdem würde mich mal interessieren, wie das ganze in der praxis funktioniert. muss z.b. auf beiden systemen das selbe projekt geladen sein?
    die latenzen summieren sich? ist das dann überhaupt auf langsameren systemen sinnvoll?
    falls jemand schon erfahrungen mit systemlink gemacht hat, bitte hier posten.
     
    NULL, 18.09.02
    #5
  6. csethje

    csethje Themenersteller

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    auch auf die Gefahr hin, mich hier als Unwissenden zu outen (dürfte aber schon in den vorherigen Beiträgen passiert sein, hehe)

    Die Verbindung zwischen dem D80 und der Soundkarte läuft über das DATA/SPDIF (IEC958 II) Format. Ist also meines Wissens (siehe oben) was anderes als ADAT.
    Daß das VST System Link für die Vernetzung von Rechnern gedacht ist, hab ich auch schon rausgelesen.

    Mein Ansatz war, daß man über ein Update des D80-Betriebssystems VSt-System-Link-Kompatibilität erhält und indem man den D80 quasi als Zweitrechner nimmt, die Ein/Ausgänge desselben für eine Übertragung auf den Rechner in Echtzeit nutzt. Also eine 8-Kanal-Soundkarte über den D80 simuliert.

    Sollte das wie Random andeutete auch ohne System Link funktionieren verweise ich auf meine Ahnungslosigkeit in Bezug auf digitale Ein/Ausgänge bei Soundkarten.

    Habt Mitleid mit mir!
     
    csethje, 18.09.02
    #6
  7. sick-guitars

    sick-guitars

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    Habe gerade nachgeschaut... VST ist immer noch beim 5.1pb2 was heisst, dass es noch nicht geht mit VST. Steinberg hat angekündigt, dass auch VST System-Link bekommen wird, aber ich vermute, dass das erst nach dem 2.0 Update von Nuendo der Fall sein wird...!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]




    [ Geändert von sick-guitars am 18.09.2002 22:43 ]
     
    sick-guitars, 18.09.02
    #7
  8. RandomRecords

    RandomRecords

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    Hier ist Kapitel 28 aus der englischen Anleitung von Cubase SX. Das sollte erstmal einige Fragen beantworten. Die deutsche Anleitung habe ich leider nicht gefunden. Jedesmal wenn das CUBASE SX steht, dann ist das ein Seitenwechsel.

    28
    VST System Link
    CUBASE SX
    28 – 624 VST System Link
    Introduction
    VST System Link is a network system for digital audio that allows you
    to have several computers working together in one large system. Unlike
    conventional networks it does not require Ethernet cards, hubs, or
    CAT-5 cables; instead it uses the kind of digital audio hardware and
    cables you probably already possess in your studio.
    VST System Link has been designed to be simple to set up and operate,
    yet give enormous flexibility and performance gains in use. It is capable
    of linking computers in a “ring” network (the System Link signal
    is passed from one machine to the next, and eventually returns to the
    first machine). VST System Link can send its networking signal over
    any type of digital audio cable, including S/PDIF, ADAT, TDIF, or AES,
    as long as each computer in the system is equipped with a suitable
    ASIO compatible audio interface.
    So, why would you want to link up two or more computers? Well, the
    added computer power gives you vast possibilities:
    • Dedicate one computer to running VST instruments while recording audio
    tracks on another.
    • If you need lots of audio tracks, you may simply add tracks on another computer.
    • You could have one computer serve as a “virtual effect rack”, running CPU-intensive
    send effect plug-ins only.
    • Since you can use VST System Link to connect different VST System Link applications
    on different platforms, you can take advantage of effect plug-ins and
    VST instruments that are specific to certain programs or platforms.
    This chapter describes how to set up and use VST System Link in
    Cubase SX.
    CUBASE SX
    VST System Link 28 – 625
    Preparations
    Requirements
    The following equipment is required for VST System Link operation:
    • Two or more computers.
    These can be of the same type or use different operating systems – it doesn’t matter.
    For example, you can link an Intel-based PC to an Apple Macintosh without problems.
    • Each computer must have audio hardware with specific ASIO drivers, installed
    and working.
    • The audio hardware must have digital inputs and outputs.
    Of course, to be able to connect the computers the digital connections must be compatible
    (i.e. the same digital formats and connection types must be available).
    • At least one digital audio cable for each computer in the network.
    • A VST System Link host application installed on each computer.
    As of this writing, VST System Link is implemented for Cubase SX, Nuendo 1.6 and
    Cubase 5.1 (System Link version). Any VST System Link applications can connect to
    each other.
    Additionally, we recommend that you use a KVM switchbox:
    Using a KVM switchbox
    If you want to set up a multi-computer network, or even a small network
    in a limited space, it's a good idea to invest in a KVM (Keyboard,
    Video, Mouse) switchbox. With one of these switchers you can use
    the same keyboard, monitor, and mouse to control each computer in
    the system, and switch between computers very rapidly. KVM switchers
    are not too expensive, and very easy to setup and operate. It you
    decide not to go this route, the network will function just the same, but
    you may end up doing a lot of jumping from one machine to the other
    while setting up!
    CUBASE SX
    28 – 626 VST System Link
    Making connections
    Below, we will assume that you are connecting two computers.
    Should you have more than two computers, it’s still best to start with
    two and add the others one by one once the system is working – this
    makes troubleshooting easier if you run into problems. For two computers,
    you will need two digital audio cables, one in each direction:
    1. Connect a digital audio cable from the digital output of Computer 1 to
    the digital input of Computer 2.
    2. Connect the other cable from the digital output of Computer 2 into the
    digital input of Computer 1.
    • If a card has more then one set of inputs and outputs, choose whichever
    one that suits you – for simplicity usually the first set is best.
    CUBASE SX
    VST System Link 28 – 627
    Setting up clock sync
    Before you proceed you need to make sure that the clock signals on
    your ASIO cards are synchronized correctly. This is essential when
    cabling any kind of digital audio system, not just VST System Link.
    All digital audio cables by definition always carry a clock signal as well as
    audio signals, so you don't need to use a special Word Clock input and
    output for this (although you may find that you get a slightly more stable
    audio system if you do, especially when using multiple computers).
    The Clock Mode or Sync Mode is set up in the audio hardware’s
    ASIO Control Panel. In Cubase SX, you proceed as follows:
    1. Pull down the Devices menu and open the Device Setup dialog.
    2. Select the VST Multitrack device and make sure the Setup tab is selected
    to the right.
    3. Click the Control Panel button.
    The ASIO Control Panel appears.
    4. Open the ASIO Control Panel on the other computer as well.
    If you are using another VST System Link host application on that computer, check its
    documentation for details on how to open the ASIO Control Panel. Hint: in Steinberg’s
    Nuendo 1.6, the procedure is the same as in Cubase SX. In Cubase 5.1, you pull
    down the Options menu, select System from the Audio Setup menu and click the Control
    Panel button in the Audio System Setup dialog that appears.
    CUBASE SX
    28 – 628 VST System Link
    5. Now, you need to make sure that one audio card (and only one!) is set
    to be the Clock Master, and all the other cards must be set to listen
    for the clock signal coming from the Clock Master i.e. they must be
    Clock Slaves.
    The naming and procedure for this differs depending on the audio hardware – consult
    its documentation if required. If you are using Steinberg Nuendo ASIO hardware, all
    cards default to the “AutoSync” setting – in this case you must set one of the cards
    (and only one) to “Master” in the Clock Mode section of the Control Panel.
    • Typically, the ASIO Control Panel for an audio card contains some indication
    of whether the card receives a proper sync signal or not, and
    the sample rate of that signal.
    This is a good indication that you have connected the cards and set up clock sync
    properly. Check your audio hardware’s documentation for details.
    It’s very important that one and only one card is the clock master, otherwise
    the network cannot function correctly. Once you have set this up, all
    the other cards in the network will take their clock signal from this card
    automatically.
    The only exception to this procedure is if you are using an external
    clock – which could be from a digital mixing desk or special Word
    Clock synchronizer for example. If so, you must then leave all your
    ASIO cards in Clock Slave or AutoSync mode, and make sure that
    each of them is listening for the signal coming from the synchronizer,
    usually passed through your ADAT cables or Word Clock connectors
    in a daisy chain fashion.
    CUBASE SX
    VST System Link 28 – 629
    Minimizing the latency
    The general definition of latency is the amount of time it takes any system
    to respond to whatever messages are sent to it. For example, if
    your system’s latency is high and you play VST instruments in real
    time, you will get a noticeable delay between when you press a key
    and when you hear the sound of the VST instrument. Nowadays, most
    ASIO-compatible audio cards are capable of operating with very low
    latencies. Also, all VST applications are designed to compensate for
    latency during playback, making the playback timing tight.
    However, the latency time of a VST System Link network is the total
    latency of all the ASIO cards in the system added together. Therefore
    it’s extra important to minimize the latency times for each computer in
    the network.
    • The latency does not affect the synchronization – it's always perfectly in
    time. But, it can affect the time it takes to send and receive MIDI and audio
    signals, or make the system seem sluggish.
    To adjust the latency of a system, you typically adjust the size of the
    buffers in the ASIO Control Panel – the lower the buffer size, the lower
    the latency. Generally speaking it's best to keep to fairly low latencies
    (buffer sizes) if your system can handle it – about 12 ms or less is usually
    a good idea.
    CUBASE SX
    28 – 630 VST System Link
    Setting up your software
    Now it’s time to set up your programs. The procedures below describe
    how to set things up in Cubase SX; if you are using another
    program on the other computer, please refer to its documentation.
    Setting the sample rate
    The projects in both programs must be set to use the same sample
    rate. Select “Project Setup…” from the Project menu and make sure
    the sample rate is the same in both systems.
    Setting up inputs and outputs
    1. Open the VST Inputs window from the Devices menu.
    2. Activate the inputs you want to use by clicking the buttons in the Active
    column.
    To make it simple you will probably want to enable all inputs available in the cable you
    are using. For example, if you are using an ADAT connection this would mean clicking
    on the first four buttons (i.e. activate the first eight inputs).
    CUBASE SX
    VST System Link 28 – 631
    3. Close the VST Inputs window and open the VST Outputs window
    from the Devices menu.
    4. Enable the output buses you need.
    Usually these should match up to the input buses you enabled above. In our ADAT
    example, this would mean the first four stereo outputs.
    5. Repeat the steps above for all computers in the network.
    • Note that at least one computer in your network needs to have more
    than one physical set of audio outputs, so that you can hear what's coming
    out of it!
     
    RandomRecords, 18.09.02
    #8
  9. RandomRecords

    RandomRecords

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    For example, if your audio card has a stereo analog out and an ADAT connector, you
    can use the ADAT connector for networking and the analog outs for monitoring. Make
    sure that the bus setup in your VST application reflects which set of outputs is doing
    which operation.
    Once we've done this we have a set of inputs and outputs that can
    carry both our network commands and audio signals from one computer
    to another. At this point, it may be a good idea to test that everything
    is set up properly:
    CUBASE SX
    28 – 632 VST System Link
    Streaming digital audio between applications
    1. Set things up so that Computer 1 plays back some audio.
    You could for example import an audio file and play this back in Cycle mode.
    2. In the Mixer, make sure the playing audio channel is routed to one of
    the digital outputs you have set up for the VST System Link connection.
    3. In Computer 2, select the corresponding digital input for an audio
    channel and activate monitoring for the channel.
    The audio being played back should now “appear” in the program running on Computer
    2. You should see the input level meters moving, and possibly hear the audio (if
    Computer 1 is set up for audio monitoring, as mentioned above).
    4. Reverse this procedure so that Computer 2 plays back and Computer
    1 “listens”.
    Now you have verified that the digital connection works as it should.
    CUBASE SX
    VST System Link 28 – 633
    Activating VST System Link
    After setting up the inputs and outputs, you now need to define which
    input/output should carry the actual VST System Link information.
    The System Link networking signal is carried on only one bit of one
    channel. This means that if you have an ADAT based system which
    normally carries eight channels of 24-bit audio, once you activate VST
    System Link you will have seven channels of 24-bit audio and one
    channel of 23-bit audio (the least significant bit of this last channel is
    what we will use for networking). In practice this makes no discernible
    difference to the audio quality, since you will still have around 138dB
    headroom on this channel – and to be honest, most so-called 24-bit
    A/D converters usually only give about 21 or 22 bits of real signal anyway.
    So don't worry too much about losing quality – even the highest
    level pros are unlikely to hear any difference.
    To set things up we need to open the VST System Link panel:
    1. Open the Device Setup dialog on the Devices menu.
    2. Select the VST System Link device and make sure the Setup tab is
    selected to the right.
    CUBASE SX
    28 – 634 VST System Link
    3. Use the ASIO Input and ASIO Output pop-up menus to define which
    channel should be the networking channel (and thus become a 23-bit
    audio channel, in our example).
    Quite often you will be able to just leave these pop-ups the way they are.
    4. Click the Active checkbox at the top of the panel.
    5. Repeat the steps above for every computer on the network.
    As the computers are made active, you should see the small T (Transmit)
    and R (Receive) lights flashing on each active computer, and the
    name of each computer should appear in the list at the bottom of the
    pane. Each computer is assigned a random number – don't worry
    about this, it's just so the network knows internally which one is which.
    • If you wish, you can double click on the name in bold (which is the
    name of the computer you’re currently working on) and set it to whatever
    other name you wish.
    This name will appear in the System Link window of every computer on the network.
    • If you don't see the name of each computer appearing once you have
    made it active, you may have to check your settings.
    Go through the procedure above again and make sure that all ASIO cards are listening
    to the digital clock signals correctly, and that each computer has the correct inputs
    and outputs assigned to the System Link network.
    Putting the network online
    After each computer's name you will see whether it is Online or not.
    When a computer is Online, that means it receives transport and timecode
    signals, and its sequencer application can be started and stopped
    by remote control. If it is Off-line it can only be started from its own keyboard
    – it is effectively an independent machine, although it is still on
    the network.
    • Note that any computer can control any and all of the others – VST System
    Link is a peer to peer network and there is no absolute “Master”
    computer.
    However, most users do like to think of one machine as the Master (in a one person /
    two computer network, this would be the machine you actually sit behind most of the
    time).
    CUBASE SX
    VST System Link 28 – 635
    For now, let's put all computers Online:
    1. Activate the Online checkbox in the VST System Link panel for all
    computers.
    2. Check that the system is working by pressing Play on one computer –
    all computers should start almost instantly and play perfectly in time,
    with sample accurate precision.
    • The Offset setting to the right allows you to adjust whether one machine
    will play back slightly ahead or behind the rest.
    This is normally not needed, but occasionally with some hardware you may find that the
    lock is a few samples out. In that case you can adjust the lock with the Offset value. For
    now, leave it set to 0 – it will most likely be what you want.
    VST System Link sends and understands all transport commands, so
    you can play, stop, fast forward, rewind etc. the entire network from
    one computer without a problem – try it! If you jump to a locator point
    on one machine, all other machines will also instantly jump to that locator
    point.
    Don't forget to make sure that all computers have their tempos set to the
    same value, otherwise your synchronization will be seriously skewed.
    CUBASE SX
    28 – 636 VST System Link
    Using MIDI
    As well as supplying transport and sync control, VST System Link also
    supplies up to 16 MIDI ports, each with 16 channels. You set this up
    as follows:
    1. Use the MIDI Ins and Outs value boxes to specify the number of MIDI
    ports you need.
    The default value is 2 MIDI In and 2 MIDI Out ports.
    2. Create a MIDI track in the Project window and open the Inspector
    (top section).
    3. If you now pull down the “in” or “out” pop-ups, you will find the specified
    System Link ports added to the list of MIDI Inputs and Outputs.
    This allows you to route MIDI tracks to VST instruments running on
    another computer, as described in the application examples (see
    page 640).
    CUBASE SX
    VST System Link 28 – 637
    The “Active ASIO Ports for Data only” setting
    If you are sending huge amounts of MIDI data at once, there is a small
    possibility that you might run out of bandwidth on your VST System
    Link network. This will manifest itself by notes “choking” or timing becoming
    erratic.
    If this happens, you can devote more bandwidth to MIDI by selecting
    Active ASIO Ports for Data only in the VST System Link Setup panel.
    When this is active, the VST System Link information will be sent on
    the entire channel instead of just one bit. This gives you 16 times the
    bandwidth you had before, more than enough for all the MIDI you
    could ever hope to use. The downside is that you can no longer use
    this ASIO channel for audio transfer (do not connect it to a speaker!),
    thus leaving you only 7 channels of audio in our ADAT cable example.
    Depending on how you work this might be a reasonable compromise.
    Hearing the network audio
    If you are using an external mixing desk, hearing your audio really isn't
    an issue – just plug the outputs of each computer into the desired
    channels on the external mixing desk, press Play on one of the computers,
    and you're good to go.
    However, many people prefer to mix internally inside the computer
    and just use a desk for monitoring (or maybe not use any external
    mixer at all). In this case you'll need to select one computer to be your
    “main mix computer” and send the audio from your other computers
    into this.
    In the following example, we assume you are using two computers,
    with Computer 1 as your main mix computer and Computer 2 running
    two additional audio tracks, a reverb plug-in and a VST instrument
    plug-in with stereo outputs.
    1. First you want to set things up so that you can listen to the audio playback
    from Computer 1.
    In other words, you need an unused set of outputs, e.g. an analog stereo output, connected
    to your monitoring equipment.
    2. Go to Computer 2 and assign each of the two audio tracks to a separate
    VST System Link output bus.
    For example, assign the audio tracks to Bus 1 and 2.
    CUBASE SX
    28 – 638 VST System Link
    3. Assign the output of the reverb to another bus (e.g. Bus 3).
    This is done using the output routing pop-up menu in the VST Send Effects window.
    4. Assign the VST instrument stereo channel to yet another bus (e.g.
    Bus 4).
    5. Go back to Computer 1 and add four new stereo audio tracks.
    These should be routed to the bus you use for listening, e.g. to the analog stereo outputs.
    6. Use the Input pop-up menus in the Mixer to select the four VST System
    Link buses (one for each track).
    7. Activate monitoring for the four tracks.
    If you now start playback, the audio from Computer 2 will be sent
    “live” to the new tracks on Computer 1, allowing you to hear them together
    with any tracks you play back on Computer 1.
     
    RandomRecords, 18.09.02
    #9
  10. RandomRecords

    RandomRecords

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    Zu der Sache mit dem Fostex: Ich glaube das kannste erst mal knicken. es sei denn, Du kriegst irgendwie Cubase oder sowas auf Deinen Fostex.

    [ Geändert von RandomRecords am 19.09.2002 00:14 ]
     
    RandomRecords, 18.09.02
    #10
  11. sick-guitars

    sick-guitars

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    So sei es...



    Viele Grüsse aus dem Käseland...
    Daniel [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    sick-guitars, 19.09.02
    #11
  12. Gunny

    Gunny

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    Sers,

    Wenn Du schon VST hast, würde ich es behalten denn wennst einmal ein älteren rechner hast, kannst es dort installieren.
    Ich glaub Steinberg will das so ähnlich wie Microsoft machen, und zwar den Erwerb von weiteren Lizenzen, ...ich weis es nicht. Vielleicht ist es irgendwann möglich 2 oder 3 zusätzliche USB-Key's nachzukaufen und so
    sein System auszulagern. (WINDOWS NT 4.0)z.B.
    Aber ich glaub das macht kein Spaß mehr auf 5 Rechnern zu arbeiten,
    das wird mit 2 schon schwierig. Man kann auch Cubase SX u VST auf einem System instaliert haben, aber ob das Sinn macht??
    Normalerweise summieren sich die Latenzen nicht denn jeder Rechner hat ja seine Audiokarte, da würde das alles nichts bringen. Stell Dir mal vor
    Du hast 5 Rechner (nur als Beispiel) auf jedem hast Du 5ms Latenz,...???
    ...na ??. Fünf ms ist schon ziemlich wenig, normalerweise so 10-12ms.

    Belehrt mich eines Besseren wenn das in einer Weise nicht zutrifft. :-D

    tja dann, Ciao.
     
    Gunny, 19.09.02
    #12
  13. popsta

    popsta Administrator

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    hi zusammen,

    nochmal zum fostex d80 und dem systemlink...
    nein, das geht leider nicht. systemlink kann generell nicht auf den fostex zugreifen. auch sendet der d80 kein adat signal, sondern ganz normales s/pdif. der digitale ausgang ist also <b>nur</b> zweikanalig.
    damals :) gab es noch dat recorder, mit denen man (ich auch mal) ein 1/2 backup machen musste. das hat ewig gedauert...hehe.
    kannst du aber auch mit dem d80 machen, dann aber nur 1/1.
    wenn deine soundkarte einen digitalen eingang besitzt, dann kannst du je zwei spuren im vst aufnehmen. das ganze dann vier mal, dann hast du also acht monosouren in vst, die du dann in vst bearbeiten kannst.
    sonst hast du keider gar keine chance, anders in den rechner zu kommen.

    mfg
    karsten
    www.homerecording.de
    www.soundsamples.de
     
    popsta, 19.09.02
    #13
  14. NULL

    NULL Guest

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    0
    noch mal kurz zu den latenzen:
    die steinberg-seite wird ja gerade umgestellt, daher funktioniert der link nicht mehr:

    (... However, the latency time of a VST System Link network is the total
    latency of all the ASIO cards in the system added together . ...
    ww.steinberg.net/products/ps/cubase/ pc/sl/pdf/VSTSystemLink.pdf)

    und hier steht auch was dazu:
    http://www1.keyboards.de/news/0112/19r02.htm

    ist ja eigentlich auch logisch, da das daten-signal die rechner seriell durchläuft. mit zwei rechnern dürfte das aber noch kein grosses problem sein.
    schon gar nicht, wenn beide rechner-outputs auf ein (digital-) mischer geroutet werden.
    trotzdem, gute hardware ist also vorraussetzung für system-link.
     
    NULL, 19.09.02
    #14
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